turtledovefandomcom-20200216-history
Talk:Maginot Line
All right, come 2F, will the line hold or not? And will Americans be helping to man it? TR (talk) 02:21, August 11, 2012 (UTC) Well, we know that the Germans won't attack the line directly; They can't. They have to go through Belgium. Are the Germans still in Belgium? As we do know, historically, the French started extending the line to the sea, part of the original reason they never did was because of money, and I believe there was some industry up in the north near the sea/Belgian border and that the line would’ve interfered with this. The French were not all that dumb and we know the reason they surrendered in OTL was that the majority of their army was defeated in Belgium after the Germans swept through the Ardens. The French still have their army in tack. PS, is it still in Russia or France? De gaulle made an impression during 1939. I'm going to bet everything on the table and say that they won't be beaten. As for the US, well that will depend on how fast Harry will let them get their troops over. But I'm not whilling to bet 'No' on an American presence. Mr Nelg :The Line has been extended to Belgium (allegedly), so the Germans will have to attack the line directly at some stage. By the end of 1941, the French army is out of Russia. TR (talk) 14:42, August 11, 2012 (UTC) Hmm... Okay. I've always suspected that Harry's trying to pull off World War I in World War II. In that case, I still believe it won't fall. BUT, and this is a very big but, Harry might pull a dick move and have the Germans break through the line anyway. The reason being if a combined allied army is massing near the Belgian border, the Germans might try to out flank that army by attacking the line. Harry has been known to ignore fortifications before, in Czechoslovakia, and Gibraltar. Harry's rule has always been thus, as long as the other guy as air superiority, they can break through anything. Harry might say that the reason they broke through was because the Germans attacked in full at a weak section of the line, weak because most of the troops there had been transferred to Belgium. But if he dose it, it might be an analogue to the battle of the bugle, IE Germany’s last hoorah of THIS war. Mr Nelg ::That could be. I hate to harp on the publishing schedule, but, seriously, HT has two books to go, and previous patterns suggest at most a book and a half to wrap up the war. You're right, HT could use German aerial tactics to kill the Line, but, given everything else he's done, I don't think that's the direction he's headed. I like the Line being the final nail in Hitler's coffin; the remaining opposition generals realize that now is the time to strike and succeed. TR (talk) 16:24, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :Is it possible the Germans won't bother attacking the line in force? I know it's extremely unlikely, but since everyone knows that a two-front war is not in Germany's best interests, and it doesn't look like France is all that eager to invade Germany, so why not fight a phony war like they did for the first nine months of the real WWII? ::Anything's possible at this point, I guess. TR (talk) 16:24, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :::Indeed, but at the end of the book everyone was taking two active primary fronts for granted, with so much certainty it was almost as though they were remembering something that had already happened. :::And of course there's the title, though maybe it will follow the same pattern as CdE and we'll hear one person say "Well, the two-front war's over. That didn't last long." Turtle Fan (talk) 18:44, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :Or maybe, since Hitler's not going to go along with that, we'll see regime change from within Germany with the goal of disengaging in the West. That was alluded to earlier. ::That would be nice. "Look, Hitler's gone, stop fighting us, West." That would actually probably solve the Eastern Front, too. Stalin would never dare trust Hitler under these circumstances. Without him, Germany could offer a plausible peace, and he might accept it. Not sure under what terms--playing up the WWI analog, German terms, even without Hitler, would almost have to be worse than Brest-Litovsk. TR (talk) 16:24, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :::The new leadership might keep up the war with Stalin. He's a bit more of a threat to Germany, any Germany, than the West is. His track record in this war shows even more strongly than his OTL record that he'll violate any agreement to seize on a tactical advantage. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:44, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :I can't help thinking that the obvious German greed and aggression of the Hess Agreement has backfired. If they'd given the French and the British the opportunity just to be at peace, instead of saying "You have to help us fight the Reds!" they'd have a secure western flank and wouldn't have to help the Italians fuck around in North Africa either. But by framing the agreement as they did, they set the narrative the Western democracies (and now democratic backsliders) faced as "We have to be at war with one of them, who do we hate more?" :As for Americans, not sure. Going from "We're still at peace with Germany despite their having made a somewhat provocative move" to "We're ready to fight on the Maginot Line" in a year is pretty abrupt. ::Granted, but, again, following the WWI analog--we've had a liner sunk, a period of tension between Germany and the USA, FDR's public disdain for Hitler, and support for the USSR and the Western Allies (when the latter was on the side of the angels), unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic. There are enough possible sparks to light the fuse, I'd argue. And, given the publishing schedule, a US entry into Europe would probably come late in the war, as with WWI. Plus unlike in WWI (but much as in OTL), the US is still fighting Japan, and so, on paper, has the same problem Germany has vis a vis a two front war. ::Heck, that might be what finally triggers Hitler's downfall. The fear that the US might get into another European war has been present right from HW. Suddenly the Amis are coming back (oh, not again; time for Hitler to join Kaiser Bill). TR (talk) 16:24, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :::It's quite common for people to see the previous generation's geopolitics played out in their own time even if the parallels are quite a stretch; remember the whole "Iraq is just like Vietnam" motif of the last decade. When the parallels match up quite closely, people are certain to notice them and almost certain to act on them. So yes. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:44, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :(And what sort of state of preparedness is the US Army in? They're not engaged in the Pacific, we've had no hint of a peacetime draft; if they go to war with Germany it will surely take them awhile to be ready for large-scale engagement.) ::According to a later McGill scene, the Army is on alert, but stuck until 1) the US enters the European war, or 2) the US gets enough of a toe-hold in the Pacific that the Army and be brought out there. I'm also fairly certain there was a reference to a draft in TBS, or at least FDR's extensive military preparedness. TR (talk) 16:24, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :::There are four hits on the word "draft" in TBS on Amazon, and only one of them is in a Druce scene. Unfortunately the page (181) is not included in the preview (and I don't have my copy handy) so all I have to go on is the little snippet in the sidebar. Herb says he's glad they don't have kids because their son(s) would be draft age if they did. Fairly noncommital. :::More substantially, FDR had the Army on alert when Germany invaded Poland in OTL, too. That doesn't mean they were ready. The new draftees went through Basic in their civvies and initially drilled with broomsticks. Then the War Department contracted with a large toy gun manufacturer to whip up a bunch of dummy guns shaped like M1 Garands. And if memory serves, in the year leading up to Pearl Harbor, the Army only had enough munitions and equipment to keep five divisions in the field. (Though apparently the Brits and French only chipped in four divisions apiece to SecCo.) Granted, the fact that the Navy and Marines are fighting Japan presumably means war production is already gearing up and that they'll be able to outfit the newly expanded Army pretty rapidly, but that doesn't mean instantaneously. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:44, August 18, 2012 (UTC) :Not nearly so abrupt, however, as "Hi, Walsh, good news! The coup went off without a hitch and we've already got a provisional government in place." Turtle Fan (talk) 17:09, August 11, 2012 (UTC)